[NCLUG] Re: NCLUG digest, Vol 1 #698 - 7 msgs Wireless Networks

Jack Schneider puck at dp-indexing.com
Tue Aug 13 16:57:44 MDT 2002


Hi, folks

AT&T opened their Denver area GSM/GPRS service 7/16/02...  Their service
supports PC cards from both Sierra Wireless (Aircard 710) and NovaTel
(Merlin ???) devices and a series of   Handsets  from Nokia, Motorola and
Erricson (NO WAY!)
I have used their CDPD stuff for nearly two years via a Sierra Aircard
350... has a 3 watt booster amp.   . (dead slow and sometimes just dead
8-)...  Once used an IP accelerator  service from BLUEKITE but they
discontinued open public support because they sold out to SPRINT.   AT&T
uses Flash-Networks , NettGain 1100 IP Accelerator, Verizon uses something
from Fourelle, Netverk's Fonestar is used by someone in USA but I don't
remember who.  BTW the much greater thru-put from GSM is gotten by both the
technology and the IP stuff.  I have been told that GSM/GPRS really runs at
50-90 Kb  but IP accelerator boosts it to what looks like 200K.
I am pursuing the use of NettGain 1100 for CDPD('software supports a broad
range of protocols)   but getting the info from AT&T is like pulling
teeth...  Flash-Networks will give you the client..

Have a great day!

Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: <nclug-request at nclug.org>
To: <nclug at nclug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:00 PM
Subject: NCLUG digest, Vol 1 #698 - 7 msgs


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Data Through Cellular Technology? (John L. Bass)
>    2. RE: Data Through Cellular Technology? (marciot)
>    3. Re: Data Through Cellular Technology? (quent)
>    4. Re: Data Through Cellular Technology? (John L. Bass)
>    5. Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Verisign_are_morons...?= (J. Paul Reed)
>    6. Re: Data Through Cellular Technology? (Michael Dwyer)
>    7. Re: Data Through Cellular Technology? (Sean Reifschneider)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:38:50 -0600
> From: "John L. Bass" <jbass at dmsd.com>
> To: nclug at nclug.org
> Subject: Re: [NCLUG] Data Through Cellular Technology?
> Reply-To: nclug at nclug.org
>
> Actually, Verizon's 3G CDMA network is at 800MHz.  So it has an
> advantage over the 1900MHz SprintPCS CDMA system.
>
> In the local market that is true - they are deployed at 1.9Ghz in other
> markets. Likewise, they did not deploy CDPD in the Colorado market, just
> AT&T at this time.
>
> > Additionally, 800mhz CPDP has much less problems with phase noise
> > caused by multipath - the higher data rate 1.9Ghz systems are much
> > more sensitive to multipath (as are 802.11 systems).
>
> CDMA systems /depend/ on multipath.  Their rake receivers listen to
> multiple tower and multiple paths at the same time, making the signal
> /more/ reliable instead of less.
>
> http://denbeste.nu/cdmafaq/index.shtml
>
> That's as much hype as fact. The rake filters only handle long multipath
as found
> off mountains and far away buildings - multipath that is over about
1,000ft. In
> building and local area multipath still is a serious problem that the rake
filter
> can not deal with. Local multipath generally has much higher signal levels
since you
> are closer to the reflector and there is less attenuation as a function of
distance
> from the reflector.
>
> Humans tend to compensate better, by moving the phone inside the standing
wave
> patterns until the multipath is well phased and additive. Datacomm
applications
> typically suffer worse, because of less feedback and fewer degrees of
freedom in
> locating the laptop.
>
> John
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:08:25 -0600
> From: marciot <marciot at holly.colostate.edu>
> To: nclug at nclug.org
> Subject: RE: [NCLUG] Data Through Cellular Technology?
> Reply-To: nclug at nclug.org
>
> Wow. This thread is getting a little over my head.
> Thanks for the info guys. That was an extremely
> thorough answer to a teeny question :)
>
> Marcio Luis Teixeira
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:02:25 -0600
> From: quent <quent at pobox.com>
> To: nclug at nclug.org
> Subject: Re: [NCLUG] Data Through Cellular Technology?
> Reply-To: nclug at nclug.org
>
> On Sun, Aug 11, 2002 at 09:18:48PM -0600, John L. Bass wrote:
> > Where can I find some information decent information about wireless
cellular
> > technology? AT&T's page (http://attws.com/) is overhyped and doesn't
contain
> > useful information. I was able to glean some good information about the
> > various technologies from "wikipedia.com," but I'm not sure how it all
> > relates to AT&Ts royal mess of tradenames.
> >
> > There are several different non-interoperable standards, each hyped by a
major
> > service provider.
> >
> > AT&T uses TDMA to support both audio phones and CDPD wireless data. The
buildout
> > is primarily high building and mountain top/ridge sites with large
cells.
> >
> > Verizon uses CDMA and currently offers only voice service in this area
(CDPD in
> > other markets), but also has been field testing a 56-128kbps data
service (no
> > release date last I heard). The build out is small cells deployed fairly
low
> > with strict power managment to control bleadover between cells.
> >
> > GSM is used by Voicestream in the US ... phones feature smartcard
security that is
> > portable between phones ... the phones are very expensive, and in order
to be
> > competitive, the carriers released them into their respective markets
"locked"
> > to their market. GSM is deployed world wide, on frequently incompatable
frequencies,
> > but you can take your smart card, and use it in a rented phone in many
markets.
> >
>
> I don't think they're more expensive than any other cell phone. I have
> a Nokia Voicestream GSM phone that cost about $40 (with a Voicestream
> contract of course).
>
> I've updated phones once and it was pretty cool - just moved the thumbnail
> sized smart card to the new phone and that was it.
>
> The dual and tri-band phones that work in the US, Europe and Asia probably
> cost a bit more, but like you said, rental phones make more sense unless
> you're staying there for a long time.
>
> Quent
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:18:30 -0600
> From: "John L. Bass" <jbass at dmsd.com>
> To: nclug at nclug.org
> Subject: Re: [NCLUG] Data Through Cellular Technology?
> Reply-To: nclug at nclug.org
>
> > GSM is used by Voicestream in the US ... phones feature smartcard
security that is
> > portable between phones ... the phones are very expensive, and in order
to be
> > competitive, the carriers released them into their respective markets
"locked"
> > to their market. GSM is deployed world wide, on frequently incompatable
frequencies,
> > but you can take your smart card, and use it in a rented phone in many
markets.
> >
>
> I don't think they're more expensive than any other cell phone. I have
> a Nokia Voicestream GSM phone that cost about $40 (with a Voicestream
> contract of course).
>
> I've updated phones once and it was pretty cool - just moved the thumbnail
> sized smart card to the new phone and that was it.
>
> The dual and tri-band phones that work in the US, Europe and Asia probably
> cost a bit more, but like you said, rental phones make more sense unless
> you're staying there for a long time.
>
> Quent
>
> I had a lot of talks with Nokida, Voicestream, and other US GSM players a
few
> years ago ... one of the topics was why some phones where vendor locked
and
> others were not. The reason stated in each case was that the providers had
to
> eat the cost difference between the GSM phones and competitive TDMA/CDMA
phones
> so they could sell service at market prices. The only way they could do
this
> was with the vendor lock function ... so a VoiceStream phone could not be
used
> in say Southern Bell's system before the contract terms were up and they
released
> the phone to you. Part of the cost difference was various royalties on GSM
> technologies that the other two systems didn't have at the time.
>
> John
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "J. Paul Reed" <preed at sigkill.com>
> To: nclug at nclug.org
> Subject: Re: [NCLUG] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Verisign_are_morons...?=
> Reply-To: nclug at nclug.org
>
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, [iso-8859-1] DJ Eshelman wrote:
>
> > Yes... and no.  The fact that I requested them to release the domain is
> > VERY DIFFERENT from if I had just in ignorance let the domain slip.
They
> > simply refused to release it, which is pretty darn evil.
>
> Well... I suppose. But I'd be willing to bet they just have no procedure
> for "releasing" a domain, and if you didn't re-register it, *you*
> technically don't own it anymore (actually, according to Verisign/NSI, you
> never did... read the fine print on your contract), so they would be under
> no legal obligation to listen to you (aside from the issue of verifying
> that you had the authority to request them to "release" the domain in the
> first place).
>
> > *I* screwed up by ever renewing with Verisign when they took over NSI.
> > The 'proper transfer procedure' invloves a charge that is DOUBLE what it
> > costs me for an entire year.  By the time I knew that, it was too late
> > anyway.  I'd already lost the client.
>
> That's true.
>
> I made the same mistake with my domain.
>
> It's good to be a monopoly, isn't it?
>
> > Well, there's more to it than that I'm sure- we deal with a lot of very
> > picky clients that may requre certain procedures and firewalls to be in
> > place.  I'm on the 'bottom rung' as far as that stuff is concerned- but
> > it pisses me off when we're locked into something like this- remember
the
> > analogy of buying a car with the hood welded shut?  That's what this has
> > become for us.
>
> Right, but see that's no one's fault but your company's.
>
> Companies might complain about Microsoft taking them to the cleaners on
> billing procedures for new software (i.e. XP, Office XP, etc.), but what
do
> they do? Keep buying Microsoft software...
>
> You really have no room to complain about a welded shut hood when you
> solicit companies that keep the welders in business.
>
> > But the bottom line is that a lot of C*Os don't think about a lot of
> > stuff like this, and do get cornered by swift talking, drink buying
> > salesmen.  It's the cards we're dealt.
>
> Yeah... you see that at the corporate level more, obviously, but at the
> smaller company/startup size, I really have no patience for that. In a
way,
> the C*O is saying "I don't respect you enough to even bother listening to
> your suggestions," and I really have no patience for that.
>
> > Thankfully I work for a company that is embracing Linux in a big way-
> > we're hoping to have some of our users even using Linux full time soon,
> > so it's expanding even beyond the
>
> That's a good thing (tm).
>
> > I must just be an idiot or something- I'm not seeing it.
>
> It looks like the spellchecker module was so popular, it was added to the
> Squirrelmail core in the 1.2-series. There's a mention of this on the
> website plus some bugfixes mentioned in the ChangeLog.
>
> Later,
> Paul
>   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   J. Paul Reed                 preed at sigkill.com || web.sigkill.com/preed
>   Wait, stop!  We can outsmart those dolphins.  Don't forget: we invented
>   computers, leg warmers, bendy straws, peel-and-eat shrimp, the glory
>   hole, *and* the pudding cup!  -- Homer Simpson, Tree House of Horror XI
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:09:21 -0600
> From: Michael Dwyer <mdwyer at sixthdimension.com>
> Organization: Sixth Dimension, Inc.
> To:  nclug at nclug.org
> Subject: Re: [NCLUG] Data Through Cellular Technology?
> Reply-To: nclug at nclug.org
>
> John L. Bass wrote:
> > I had a lot of talks with Nokida, Voicestream, and other US GSM players
a few
> > years ago ... one of the topics was why some phones where vendor locked
and
> > others were not. The reason stated in each case was that the providers
had to
> > eat the cost difference between the GSM phones and competitive TDMA/CDMA
phones
> > so they could sell service at market prices. The only way they could do
this
> > was with the vendor lock function ... so a VoiceStream phone could not
be used
> > in say Southern Bell's system before the contract terms were up and they
released
> > the phone to you. Part of the cost difference was various royalties on
GSM
> > technologies that the other two systems didn't have at the time.
>
> Maybe TDMA, but not CDMA.  I would suspect that the CDMA phones are even
> more expensive, owing to the licencing fees manufacturers must pay to
> Qualcomm for the CDMA chipset.  All the Sprint and Verizon phones are
> subsidy locked.  Once again, I point you towards the CDMA FAQ about
> subsidy locks:
> http://denbeste.nu/cdmafaq/phone.shtml
> http://denbeste.nu/cdmafaq/glossary.shtml#Subsidy lock
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:46:21 -0600
> From: Sean Reifschneider <jafo-nclug at tummy.com>
> To: nclug at nclug.org
> Subject: Re: [NCLUG] Data Through Cellular Technology?
> Reply-To: nclug at nclug.org
>
> On Sun, Aug 11, 2002 at 01:49:43PM -0600, Marcio Luis Teixeira wrote:
> >Where can I find some information decent information about wireless
cellular
> >technology? AT&T's page (http://attws.com/) is overhyped and doesn't
contain
>
> AT&T is talking about rolling out one of the 3G technologies next year.
> It's not clear what their pricing is going to be though...  We have CDPD
(I
> can show you it at the next Hacking Society if you're there), which is
> super slow (around 1KB/sec), but does work.  Cost for that is $70/month.
>
> CDPD coverage in Colorado is pretty good, but unless you're on one of the
> coasts it's pretty bad outside of CO.  It's good for getting e-mail or
> doing the emergency work, but barely useful in most cases I've found...
> I'm just waiting for something else to come out that I can replace it
with.
>
> The thing I'm looking at is the new Sprint system that was just announced
a
> few days ago.  Sounds like it'll be 3X (144kbps as opposed to
Voicestream's
> 1X 50kbps deployment), and cost is $40 for 20GB or $100 for unlimited.
>
> I really like being connected wherever I should go, but CDPD is just
barely
> useable.  I mostly have it for emergencies.
>
> Sean
> --
>  A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
mercy.
>                 -- Joseph Campbell
> Sean Reifschneider, Inimitably Superfluous <jafo at tummy.com>
> tummy.com - Linux Consulting since 1995. Qmail, KRUD, Firewalls, Python
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
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> NCLUG at nclug.org
> http://www.nclug.org/mailman/listinfo/nclug
>
>
> End of NCLUG Digest




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